Following my report about the children off Llywelyn Fawr and you will Joanna additionally the answers they obtained, We appeared once more from the genealogical users on the subject of Gwladus Ddu. While it is real, while the numerous genealogists point out, that throughout the absence of specified facts in some manner, this new identity of your own mommy out-of Gwladus Ddu need to will always be ‘unknown’, I found you should not changes my personal conclusion one their unique mother was Joanna and not Tangwystyl.
Vat
One to further resource on the subject of its people is the after the conceptual on ‘Kings and you may Queens from Britain’ a respected guide, written by Oxford University Push, page 106:
‘Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, b.1173, young buck out of Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and you will Marared, child regarding Madog ap Maredudd; acc. east Gwynedd 1195; hitched Joan, illegitimate daughter out-of King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; passed away 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’
To show it is just me that thinks therefore, let me price you to definitely genealogist who is good enthusiast off Sharon: “I’m really partial to Sharon Kay Penman’s books. Even though they commonly strictly biographical, I believe more comfortable counting on their own try to ‘complete the brand new blanks’ (given the number of look she of course placed into her instructions), than in indeed mentioning certain genealogical source that i have come across the in my research (I am aware most of us come across supplies that way). To help you whoever has not even understand their own work, I recommend it extremely highly, specifically if you would like to get a be for what lives is eg 800 in years past.”
Their unique research having ‘HBD’, ‘Drops the new Shadow’ and you will ‘The fresh Reckoning’, accomplished before the regarding the net, is it really is a fantastic
After the questions posed by Beth, Suzanne and you will Exotic in particular, I attempt comparing the name of Joanna’s mom (referred to hereafter, getting easy site due to the fact ‘Clemence’ maybe not ‘Clementia’) thanks to an affair to your so you can-be-king John. This step became even more complex than simply I might possess consider you’ll! Immediately following running up of many blind alleys, generally as a consequence of trying to get together again the fresh new chronology of just one into the almost every other, I have paid on what comes after. I don’t say that the things i wrote is actually decisive in just about any shape or mode, additionally the facts are we will probably not yes of their unique term.
(a) The new illegitimate Joanna, child from “Clemence,” are unquestionably born of wedlock –– as it is turned-out by Honorius III’s decree saying their particular genuine inside April 1226, even when instead prejudice to your king or arena of England (i.age., offering their own no-claim compared to that throne). This new decree, which has been transcribed in the unique, unpublished Sign in regarding Honorius III (Reg. 13, fol. 122 ), states inter alia that “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de soluta,” and that, I’m advised, means “King John away from England, whenever single , fathered you by an unmarried woman.”
It indicates Joanna may have started created zero after than just 1189 whenever John hitched Isabella off Gloucester. Their unique mommy, “Clemence” are probably French or Norman, as the research from the patent moves of John’s leadership implies that Joan try delivered out-of Normandy to The united kingdomt for the December 1203, to prepare to own marriage so you can Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (find lower than). Joanna passed away for the Feb 1237.
(b) John’s legitimate daughter Joan, by Isabella off Angouleme (hitched to help you John from inside the 1200 on ages 12!), came into this world on Gloucester on twenty two July 1210 (understand the Tewkesbury Annals on yasal ukraynalД± arkadaЕџlД±k siteleri var mД±? the Goes Series, vol. 36.i, p. 59; the brand new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. thirty-six.iv, p. 399; and Rotuli Litterarum Patencium to have John’s Leadership, pp. 124, 143). This is the Joan who subsequently partnered Alexander II off Scotland and you may she died into the 1238, particular months after Joanna (this may account fully for some of the dilemma clear involving the two female). She kept no issue of the Alexander II.